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Internal family systems therapy

Couples Therapy Melbourne

Internal family systems therapy

IFS®  is a transformative tool that conceives every human being as a system of protective and wounded inner parts lead by a core Self. We believe the mind is naturally multiple and that is a good thing. Just like members of a family, inner parts are forced from their valuable states into extreme roles within us. Self is in everyone. It can’t be damaged. It knows how to heal. 

IFS®  is frequently used as an evidence-based psychotherapy, helping people heal by accessing and healing their protective and wounded inner parts. IFS®  creates inner and outer connectedness by helping people first access their Self and, from that core, come to understand and heal their parts.  

"The mission of IFS Institute is to bring more Self leadership to the world. "

But IFS®  is much more than a non-pathologizing evidence-based psychotherapy to be used in a clinical setting. It is also a way of understanding personal and intimate relationships and stepping into life with the 8 Cs: confidence, calm, compassion, courage, creativity, clarity, curiosity, and connectedness.

Professionals from many different backgrounds such as, but not limited to, legal mediation, school administration, life coaches and religious leaders may utilize IFS®  to inform and guide their work. Our growing list of educational programs aims to serve not only therapists but the wider public and other professions.  

The History Of IFS

This type of therapy was developed in the early 1990s by Richard Schwartz, who developed the approach after listening to people in therapy speak about inner parts within themselves. As a young family therapist, Schwartz had received training in systems thinking and family therapy theory, and he believed he was truly able to listen to the individuals in his care once he set aside his preconceived ideas of therapy and the human mind

While the concept of multiple intrapsychic entities was not new (Sigmund Freud posited the existence of the id, ego, and superego), Schwartz’s training in systems thinking prompted him to seriously consider the interactions and relationships between these internal entities. He found internal parts to play common but dynamic roles: the relationships between parts could be changed if an individual intervened carefully and respectfully. Schwartz began to visualize the human mind as an internal family and began to apply in treatment the techniques he had learned as a family therapist.

IFS explained and what to expect

Internal Family Systems (IFS) uses Family Systems theory—the idea that individuals cannot be fully understood in isolation from the family unit—to develop techniques and strategies to effectively address issues within a person’s internal community or family. This evidence-based approach assumes each individual possesses a variety of sub-personalities, or “parts,” and attempts to get to know each of these parts better to achieve healing.

By learning how different parts function as a system and how the overall system reacts to other systems and other people, people in therapy can often, with the help of a trained mental health professional, become better able to identify the roots of conflict, manage any complications arising, and achieve greater well-being. 

IFS is based on an integrative model. The approach combines established elements from different schools of psychology, such as the multiplicity of the mind and systems thinking, and posits that each sub-personality or part possesses its own characteristics and perceptions. IFS also brings together various strategies from the Bowenian therapy base as well as techniques from more traditional narrative and structural modalities. The different elements are united through the goal of understanding and effectively addressing the different parts of the mind.

Though this therapy technique sees each level of consciousness as having different sub-personalities, each sub-personality has its own likes, dislikes, burdens, and history, and each sub-personality is thought to play a distinct role in achieving self-preservation for the person in therapy. Every part within a person is responsible for warding off behaviors, actions, or reactions that could result in dysfunction or disharmony within the individual. Thus, each part is validated and recognized as important due to its primary function. Parts may be identified as having either healthy and productive roles or extreme roles. Those parts with roles considered extreme may benefit from therapeutic work. The IFS model emphasizes the network of relationships between parts as parts may not be able to experience change in isolation.

The IFS model has 5 basic assumptions:

  • The human mind is subdivided into an unknown number of parts.
  • Each person has a Self, and the Self should be the chief agent in coordinating the inner family.
  • Parts engaging in non-extreme behavior are beneficial to the individual. There is no such thing as a “bad part.” Therapy aims to help parts discover their non-extreme roles. 
  • Personal growth and development leads to the development of the internal family. Interactions between parts become more complex, allowing for systems theory to be applied to the internal system. Reorganization of the internal system may lead to rapid changes in the roles of parts. 
  • Adjustments made to the internal system will result in changes to the external system and vice versa. Therefore, both the internal and external systems need to be adequately assessed.

There are three distinct types of parts in the IFS model:

  1. Managers are responsible for maintaining a functioning level of consciousness in daily life by warding off any unwanted or counterproductive interactions, emotions, or experiences resulting from external stimuli.
  2. Exiles are most often in a state of pain or trauma, which may result from childhood experiences. Managers and firefighters exile these parts and prevent them from reaching the conscious level so that proper functioning and preservation are maintained.
  3. Firefighters serve as a distraction to the mind when exiles break free from suppression. In order to protect the consciousness from feeling the pain of the exiles, firefighters prompt a person to act on impulse and engage in behaviors that are indulgent, addictive, and often times abusive. Firefighters may redirect attention to other areas such as sex, work, food, alcohol, or drugs.

Managers and firefighters play the role of Protectors, while exiles are parts that are protected.

In IFS therapy, the Self represents the seat of consciousness and what each person is at the core. The Self demonstrates many positive qualities such as acceptance, confidence, calmness, wisdom, compassion, connectedness, leadership and perspective. Unlike visible parts, the Self is never seen. It is the witnessing “I” in the inner world—this aspect of an individual does the observing.

The IFS model aims to differentiate the Self from the other parts (managers, firefighters, and exiles) making up a person’s inner world. The ultimate goal of IFS is to unburden or restore extreme and wounded parts and establish a trusted, healthy, harmonious internal system that is coordinated by the Self. 

Once in a state of Self, people in treatment will know what to say to each part in order to promote internal system harmony. IFS therapists therefore try to help people achieve and maintain a state of Self so they can become counselors to own internal families. This increased internal harmony often results in positive thoughts and behaviors in the external life of the individual. 

IFS is used to treat a wide variety of mental health conditions and psychological wounds. It may be applied in family, couple, and individual situations. As of November 2015, this type of therapy is listed in the National Registry for Evidence-based Programs and Practices (NREPP) as an evidence-based practice. It has been shown to be effective for the improvement of general emotional and mental well-being and has been rated as promising to improve symptoms of phobia, panic, generalized anxiety, depression, and certain physical ailments. 

Issues treated with IFS therapy include:

  • Trauma
  • Physical, emotional, or sexual abuse
  • Compulsive behaviours
  • Depression
  • Bipolar
  • Body image issues
  • Anxiety
  • Phobias
  • Substance dependency

A session of IFS therapy may take the form of traditional talk therapy, but a therapist may also choose to focus on an affected individual’s internal environment and help the individual connect different parts to Self. For example, a person who is experiencing alcohol addiction may be asked to relax, take a few deep breaths, and try to feel the part inside that wants to keep drinking. That part may be identified via a body sensation, a visual image, or an inner awareness of the part’s existence.

With the person in treatment now focusing on the internal environment, the therapist may ask how the person feels about that part. The individual may report feelings of shame, disgust, anger, or even fear. The therapist will typically then explain the need to find out the reason behind the part’s actions, often gently encouraging the person in therapy to “turn down the volume” of any fear, hatred, disgust, or shame felt toward the part, in order for the part to communicate clearly.

The part may explain it acts in the way it does to help the individual deal with difficult problems being experienced. At this point, the therapist may instruct the individual in treatment to ask the part if it would be willing to stop its actions if other effective coping mechanisms were used instead. The part may strongly doubt any other methods will be able help the individual to cope, yet still be willing to try these methods as there is nothing to lose. With permission granted, the therapist will often then help the individual to deal with issues in healthy and constructive ways.

In IFS, people work to understand the inner self through the use of simple yet efficient exercises and techniques. Many exercises are linked to effective breathing control, which promotes relaxation and mental clarity.

Common techniques and exercises in IFS include:

  • Keeping a journal
  • Using diagrams to illustrate relationships between parts
  • The room technique. In this exercise one part watches as the Self interacts with another part (with which the observing part is polarized). This technique is used to bring polarized parts together.
  • Mountain or path exercise. In a safe setting, people in therapy visualize themselves walking along an inviting path. If one can see oneself in the image, the therapist will encourage the person to move into the body and view the scenery from within, asking the individual to pay careful attention to the thoughts, feelings, and sensations that arise. This exercise is believed to help a person in therapy explore and better understand the inner world.
  • Getting to know whoever’s there. An individual is encouraged to breathe, relax, focus on the inner world, and get to know the present parts even better.
  • Feeling one’s heart. An individual is encouraged to breathe, relax, and feel the heart. Does it feel emotionally open, or is it encrusted and closed? The individual may ask the protectors to step back for a while so the exiles may be better understood.
Dr. Elizabeth Landau

Therapy Credentials and Professional Memberships

  • Ph.D. in Psychology from the University of Melbourne
  • M.S. in Counselling from California State University Long Beach 
  • B.A. in Psychology from the University of California, Los Angeles 
  • AHPRA Registered Psychologist (PSY0002189205)
  • Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (California LMFT 119359)
  • Member of the Australian Psychological Society
  • Clinical Member of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists 
  • Member of the International Centre for Excellence in Emotionally Focused Therapy
  • Member of the Society of Behavioural Sleep Medicine

Dr. Elizabeth Landau

Psychologist & Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist

Elizabeth is passionate about emotional and relational wellbeing.  When there’s harmony and balance in our inner world and our relationships, the stuff of life can seem easier to tackle.  Using an empathic, collaborative, and holistic style, Elizabeth helps individuals and couples build long-term strategies for happiness and fulfilment.

In her work with couples, Elizabeth believes that a secure bond is what makes for healthy and resilient relationships.  She helps couples strengthen this bond through developing skills to clearly communicate needs, emotionally attune (resonate with your partner’s feelings), and trust being vulnerable with each other.  She guides couples in healing communication-style mismatches, periods of emotional disconnection, infidelity and mistrust, child rearing conflicts, separation and divorce, and step-family issues. 

In addition, Elizabeth specialises in treating individuals coping with mood and/or sleep disorders.  She helps clients develop sustainable strategies to better cope with and recover from constant worrying and anxious thoughts, feeling down, depressed, and hopeless, and periods of insomnia and hypersomnia.

She supports same- and opposite-sex couples, persons of all genders, cultures, backgrounds, faiths, and all relationship styles (including monogamous and poly relationships).  Elizabeth also regularly provides therapy for members of the LGBTQIA+ community for issues such as identity discovery, gender dysphoria, pre and post-op gender confirmation issues, stigma, and bullying and discrimination.

Elizabeth also offers counselling in Spanish (ofrece terapia en español).

Elizabeth began her training as a Marriage and Family Therapist in 2011.  Across the greater Los Angeles and San Francisco Bay areas, Elizabeth gained extensive experience in community and hospital clinics treating individuals, couples, and families impacted by a broad range of psychological difficulties.  Since moving to Australia in 2015, she has continued to support the mental well-being of folks in the Melbourne community through her Ph.D. training, research fellowships, and clinical work in private practice.

Elizabeth has published several scientific articles in leading psychology journals, presented research findings at national and international conferences, and has held fellowship positions at the Florey Institute and Monash University conducting clinical research trials for psychological interventions to improve mental health. 

Elizabeth is also the Founder and Director of Mahina Consulting, a corporate sleep consulting firm where she provides evidence-based sleep treatment intervention to businesses across Melbourne to improve employee sleep, productivity, and profitability.

Using evidence-based therapy techniques to help her clients, Elizabeth draws from Mindfulness, which focuses on staying present to your experiences; Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT), which enables you to identify and explore the connection between thoughts, feelings, and actions; Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT), which helps you identify your values and commit to actions which bring forth richness and meaning to life; and Emotionally-Focused Couples Therapy (EFT), which explores attachment bonds and helps couples have more empathy for each other so they can build deeper connections.

Therapy Credentials and Professional Memberships

  • Graduate Diploma Family and Relationship Therapy, Williams Street Centre for Family Therapy, Perth
  • Graduate Certificate of Family Therapy, The Bouverie Centre and La Trobe University, Melbourne
  • Masters Social Work, RMIT University, Melbourne
  • Postgraduate Diploma of Arts (Editing and Communications), University of Melbourne
  • Bachelor of Arts (English Literature, French, Political Science), University of Western Australia, Perth
  • Membership of the Australian Association of Social Workers (AASW)
  • Professional Membership of the Australian Association of Family Therapy (AAFT)

Finn Nugent


As a therapist Finn is person-centred and emotion-focused, informed by an awareness of family-systems theories, attachment theory, mindfulness, polyvagal theory and the nervous system, trauma, Internal Family Systems therapy, social justice and intersectionality.

Finn enjoys working with couples at all stages in their relationship, including those navigating communication problems, family of origin issues, sexual issues, betrayals, grief, polyamorous situations, parenting issues and blended families. She is able to work with couples seeking to separate well or to navigate co-parenting after separation. She is an LGBTQIA+ ally.

As a therapist working with a family group, Finn seeks to make space for everyone’s perspective and to create the conditions that enable you to hear each other in ways that can be difficult outside the therapy room. The focus is on the qualities and dynamics of the relationships.

As a Family Therapy trained practitioner Finn considers your relationships and your relational context when working with you as an individual. She works with people seeking personal growth and change, on issues including depression and anxiety, stress, identity, sexuality, relationship problems, navigating life-stage changes, finding purpose, grief and loss.

Finn’s approach is informed by an awareness of our physicality and our spirituality and may draw upon elements of breathwork, visualisation and symbology. Finn believes that personal change is a multifaceted process and involves the dynamic interplay of the different dimensions of our selves.

Finn is a masters-qualified Social Worker with additional qualifications in Family and Relationship Therapy. Over the last 8 years she has worked with individuals, couples and families from all walks of life as a practitioner in the corporate and private sectors and in non-government organisations across Australia.

Naeem Rana


Naeem is a registered counsellor; his qualifications include a Master of Counselling and Graduate Diploma in Psychology. 

Naeem has lived in Melbourne for the past 22 years. Being a counsellor, he thoroughly enjoys learning about people. He believes that there is something special that we hold within ourselves and that’s what makes us human. This special part of us is the source of our positive development. Naeem sees his work as a journey of growth; he learns from the people he works with and engages in ongoing professional development. 

In addition to his academic achievements, Naeem has specialised training in trauma-informed practice, suicide prevention, self-harm, and couple’s counselling. His way of working is very holistic and person-centred. He supports clients in focusing and accessing core emotions to identify and process them. His work with clients helps them develop deeper meanings of their thought processes. 

Naeem is empathic, he offers acceptance without judgments, and really believes in people and their capabilities.  He finds it fulfilling when he can witness his clients’ growth.  He has help clients deepen relationship, repair relationships and has also helped some couples through the challenges of separation.

Therapy Credentials and Professional Memberships

  • B.A. Hons, La Trobe University
  • Bachelor of Social Work, Melbourne University.
  • Post Grad Dip Family Therapy, Bouverie Centre, La Trobe University
  • Masters of Family Therapy (couple therapy), La Trobe University.
  • A.A.S.W. Australian Association of Social Work
  • A.A.F.T. Australian Association of Family Therapy

Emily McDonald


Emily McDonald is a Family and Couple Therapist, (Clinical Social Worker) with over 25 years’ experience working across diverse sectors such as mental health, specialist child and family relationship services, family law settings and private practice.

Emily’s practice combines experience and knowledge with care and compassion. Emily provides a strong client centred approach, working collaboratively with couples to identify priorities, support wellbeing and work towards positive change. Emily believes it is important that couples gain hope, relief and a way forward right from the first session.

In her work with couples, Emily uses a flexible approach designed to attune to a couples’ unique needs. Emily offers valuable tools to reduce stress and build communication confidence and competence. Emily also offers the opportunity to connect current relationship patterns with past life experiences, assisting clients to gain new perspectives, greater insight and empathy for themselves and each other.

Emily assists a wide variety of individuals and couples that span the life cycle, from diverse cultural backgrounds and couples from LGBTIQ+ communities.

Emily has extensive experience working with individuals and couples who may be struggling with anxiety, depression, anger, past or current trauma and abuse, grief and loss, relationships difficulties across the life cycle, parenting struggles, separation and divorce and other life transitions. Emily also offers stepfamily formation and transition work; recovery from experiences of family violence/ trauma and assistance to take responsibility for harmful behaviours in relationships.

Emily has a commitment to gain regular feedback from her clients, in order to create a safe and effective therapeutic relationship. Emily uses this feedback to inform her work and is able to employ a combination of evidenced based relationship therapies, such as Emotion Focused Couples Therapy, Gottman and interpersonal neurobiological methods. Emily is also able to employ Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT), Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT), systemic and narrative therapies.

Emily is an experienced senior manager, trainer and clinical supervisor and has lectured in child, parent and family therapy at Mindful, Centre for Training and Research in Developmental Health, Melbourne University and La Trobe University. 

Therapy Credentials and Professional Memberships

  • PhD candidate at the University of Melbourne School of Computing and Information Systems.
  • AHPRA registration: Psychologist.
  • Member is the Australian Psychology Society (APS).
  • Post-graduate professional course in Family and Systemic Psychotherapy, at CSTFR, Rome, Italy, Research Centre of Family and Relational Therapy.
  • Post-graduate Professional Course in Clinical Sexology, University of Pisa, Department of Medicine, Italy.
  • Master’s Degree in Clinical Psychology, LUMSA University, Rome, Italy.
  • Bachelor’s Degree in Clinical Psychology, La Sapienza University, Rome, Italy.

Francesco Cataldo


Francesco was born and raised in Italy, where he trained to become a psychotherapist. After his degree in Clinical Psychology, he completed a post graduate degree in Family Psychotherapy. He has more than 10 years of practice in working with clients experiencing a variety of mental and relational health issues.

Francesco supports his clients by empathising and creating a warm and safe environment with a non-judgemental approach. He helps clients gain insight into their relationship and emotional communication patterns, and in working around all the hidden mechanisms which prevent clients from living a more fulfilled life. He fosters his clients’ necessities and goals, tailoring his method to their needs.

Francesco is aware of the importance of healthy communication and the role emotions play in relationships. Without effective communication tools and the ability to clearly express emotions, couples and families often face a vast array of difficulties. Francesco works with couples in the areas of building trust, navigating divorce, couple and family reunification, same-sex relationship difficulties, infidelity, sexual disorders and violence. He also conducts individual sessions in the following areas: abuse, eating disorders, gender identity stress, anxiety, depression, bullying, drug and alcohol addiction, panic attacks, grief, loss and traumas.

Francesco moved to Australia few years ago to pursue a PhD in Telehealth/Digital Health at the University of Melbourne. He is currently researching the impact of technology on Videoconferencing Psychotherapy. He has been involved in academia for more than 10 years publishing also several works.

He loves to diversify his interests in a variety of mental health issues and relationship conditions in order to support his clients in every stage of their lives. Francesco has gained extensive experience in public and private sectors and helps his clients to recover from different mental and relationship issues by harmonising theoretical and clinical understanding.

Francesco supports couples facing a range of emotional and relationship issues such as communication breakdowns, sexual disorders, loss of trust, parenting styles and extended family issues.

Francesco has been intensively trained to treat individuals, couples and families. He has had the opportunity to attend The Family and Relationship Therapy Centre which is led by some of the European pioneers of the Systemic Family approach. He stays up-to-date with the ongoing European therapy methodologies, bringing science and new models to his practice.

Furthermore, Francesco has also completed a post graduate degree in Clinical Sexology.  This allows him to competently work with individuals and couples through a wide range of sexual issues.

Francesco can also deliver therapy sessions in Italian language (Francesco conduce terapie anche in lingua Italiana)

Therapy Credentials and Professional Memberships

  • Bachelor of Social Work, University of Melbourne
  • Diploma in Education, University of Gdansk, Poland
  • Masters in Economics, University of Gdansk, Poland
  • Fully registered with The Australian Association of Social Workers (AASW)
  • Fully registered as an Accredited Mental Health Social Worker, (AASW 443222)

Marlena Ziety

Therapist, Accredited Mental Health Worker

Marlena has a warm, empathic, and non-judgmental therapy approach, which she uses to create a safe and supportive space for you heal your relationship.

She feels honoured when her clients share their sensitive and vulnerable parts of themselves as they work towards healing their relationships.

With her authentic, curious, and gentle challenging style, Marlena encourages healing, relationship repair, and growth.

Marlena finds great pleasure in working with couples. Her personal and professional journey of healing and growth has shown her how essential healthy relationships are to happiness and wellbeing.

She believes that we all get a bit stacked at times and require support. Marlena recognises that relationships are complex and can bring both joy and hurt; and that it is through relationships that we heal, grow, and live satisfying lives.

With over 20 years of experience working with individuals, couples, and families, Marlena has the expertise to help you heal.

She is trained in and works with a range of evidence-based therapeutic modalities including Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy (PACT), Acceptance Commitment Therapy (ACT), Mindfulness-based techniques, Motivational Interviewing (MI), Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT).

Choosing approaches uniquely suited to you and your concerns, Marlena will help you solve your problems whether you are an individual or a couple. She uses whichever techniques are most likely to bring you a more rewarding relationship and a happier life.

In addition to helping individuals and couples resolve relationship issues, Marlena has worked intensively with issues of trauma; depression; anxiety; various addictive behaviours, including problematic gambling and eating disorders, grief and loss, mental health, abuse, self-esteem, stigma, and parenting difficulties.

Marlena is bilingual and provides counselling in both English and Polish. She is also a registered Medicare Provider.

Therapy Credentials and Professional Memberships

  • BA (Hons), Australian National University; Literature
  • MA, University of Cologne; Literature
  • Postgrad. Dip. Appl. Psych, Monash University
  • M-Psych (Counselling), Monash University
  • M-Crim (Forensic Psychology), University of Melbourne
  • Member of the Australian Psychological Society, Endorsed Counselling Psychologist

Catherine Lally

Counselling Psychologist/Director

After a long and wonderfully rewarding career as a counselling psychologist and relationship therapist, Catherine is now enjoying retirement in Hobart.

Although she is not working directly with clients anymore, she continues to collaborate with Emma in running a practice that provides high quality therapy at a reasonable cost.

Catherine still treasures being part of the amazing team that makes up CTM, and she continues to support team members through peer-supervision. 

Learning about Internal Family Systems therapy, IFS, has been the highlight in the later stages of Catherine’s career.  Catherine has completed several courses helping her become an Internal Family Systems (IFS) informed therapist, including Stepping Stones and Advanced Training with Derek Scott, and Applied Internal Family Systems Therapy (Adler Graduate Professional School) and Intimacy from the Inside Out (Liz Phillips).

Therapy Credentials and Professional Memberships

  • Bachelor of Science (Psychology Major), Monash University; Melbourne
  • Postgraduate Diploma in Psychology, Bond University; Gold Coast
  • Advanced Postgraduate Diploma in Psychology, Monash University; Melbourne
  • Graduate Diploma in Psychotherapy, Cairnmillar Institute; Melbourne
  • Certificate IV in Training and Assessment, MWT; Melbourne
  • Member of Australian Psychological Society

Emma Cholakians


Emma is a registered Psychologist in Melbourne with a strong interest in helping individuals and couples flourish and have more rewarding relationships.

With her passion for working with couples, Emma helps you understand each other better, recognise and enhance your strengths, resolve conflict, break free of old patterns, and communicate more effectively.

Emma uses a client-centered approach, which means her clients’ needs, desires, and goals are of utmost importance. Her counselling work focuses on providing her clients with nurturance, education, collaboration, and research-based counselling methods.

Growing up between Middle Eastern and European cultures has shown Emma the influence culture has on relationship dynamics. The family unit has such a strong influence on the connection, happiness, and development of its members.

Being the parent of a 6 year old has taught Emma the importance of continuing to foster a close and loving connection with her partner despite the distractions a young child can bring into a relationship.

Emma has experience in private, not for profit, and public sectors, providing both short and long-term treatment for a range of relationship and mental health problems.

Emma has worked with various types of couples helping to foster more desirable and satisfying relationships. Couples have included same and opposite-sex couples, young couples, couples who are pregnant, couples in business, etc.

In couples therapy, Emma has helped her clients with secrets that have caused damage, including secrets such as infidelity (including cybersex). She also has experience with couples stuck in conflict; those with addiction issues; couples stressed by life transitions, financial issues, parenting conflicts, lifestyle differences; and those with conflicts in the extended family.

Emma is trained in several therapies that have been shown to help couples improve their relationships. These include the Developmental Model of Couples Therapy, Schema Therapy for Couples, and Relationship Therapy Methodologies developed by the Hart Centre.

All of these couples therapy methods help you become more aware of your problems, reduce your reactions to one another, and help you resolve differences. The goal is to help you connect more deeply with one another so you can have a more rewarding and lasting relationship.

Emma is bilingual (English and Armenian).